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well... I mean... I know tulpas technically grow much faster because they have there hosts minds to work off of and don't have bodies to mature but... I mean I doubt there is a tulpa in here that is much over 18... Also... I am sure I am not the first person to bring this up but... isn't it kind of incest then?
6:41 AM
I swear I am not trying to stir shit here
6:43 AM
I am asking because the "mask" was literally a succubus... So that question has to be asked...
Romantic relationships between headmates do happen. If you want to label it as incest, go and label it as incest. Nothing wrong with incest between consenting adults IMO, especially if there is no risk of unwanted pregnancy to begin with...
The general consensus seems to be that there's nothing inherently wrong with host/tulpa romantic relationships, however if you create a tulpa, they will very likely develop a "mind of their own" (that's essentially the goal, right?) and it may turn out they're not interested in that
Generally the tendency for host-tulpa relationships isn't because of pressure from the original party at least, in a perfect world it isn't, but of course there's uglier sides to the tulpa community in general where that isn't the case but rather the lack of any serious "walls" between the two parties--it's rather very easy to have that someone who "knows you better than you know yourself" in a tulpa, and that sort of thing lays the foundation for deeper attachments very easily
if only people knew how endogenic systems work and how system beliefs form their narrative and experience, they wouldn't be freaking out about succubus being send to them by randoms on the internet, and later make it more complicated for themselves by some moral dilemmas about "enslavement" and the nature of relationship with a headmate
I want to point out that the term "thoughtform" and "tulpa" don't really relate to "magical servitors", even in metaphysical circles. With my limited understanding, a magical servitor is an entity you create that can travel around and interact with other people. I heard that there's a master-servitor relationship and that ends terribly if the master is not powerful enough or something.
With modern tulpamancy, most tulpas discovered they can't do cool things like talk to people or even push objects around in their environment. Some tulpas believe in system hopping, but most write that off as not a thing.
The master-servitor relationship is more or less not applicable in most practices of modern tulpamancy. People who make tulpas to be treated like sex toys are made fun of and humiliated, young tulpas in love with their host are in a similar boat. The main belief is a tulpa should be treated like another person and therefore should be treated with the same respect as another person.
One thing that tends to naturally challenge the host-master dynamic is deviation. Personality forcing isn't final, it has its limits in the long run. You can "give" your tulpa the traits of being a kind and gentle person, but overtime you find out they're a very loud and in your face kind of person despite being nice overall. They decided the gentle thing wasn't them and naturally reject it. While personality forcing can affect a tulpa and its use is controversial, personality forcing in of itself is not enough to "enslave" a tulpa.
"People who make tulpas to be treated like sex toys are made fun of and humiliated, young tulpas in love with their host are in a similar boat. The main belief is a tulpa should be treated like another person and therefore should be treated with the same respect as another person."
it's interesting that people are laughed at and humiliated, but you need to treat a tulpa with dignity "as another person"
1:41 PM
don't get me wrong, i don't approve creating a headmate with that purpose in mind, however i don't think tulpa would mind at all, unless they are told it's a bad thing
1:42 PM
we've met a few tulpas made for that reason specifically and they were happy with it
I am asking because the "mask" was literally a succubus... So that question has to be asked...
This is interesting to me because we have done something similar in our system but took a different direction with it.
Instead of masks, we call an "evil" or "intrusive" entity in the mind an intrusive thoughtform. We came up with this because it helped explain why our headmates acted out of character and why random baby-tulpas or walk-in entities were hostile. This was something that only seemed to happen in our system more or less and we suspect it happened as a byproduct of anxiety/depression and my host's mild trauma.
We found that walk-ins and intrusive thoughtforms were very similar, only one was agreeable and the other was not. My host thought that some of his characters (he didn't know they were tulpas yet) shouldn't be forgotten, so he tried to work with them. Over time, a couple intrusive thoughtforms settled down and started to develop like normal tulpas. They deviated to reject the "evil" parts and kept the cool parts they wanted to keep.
Instead of viewing their intrusive form as a mask, we see it as a raw first form. However, like a mask, it can be rejected. I wouldn't aim to reject everything, especially because our headmates kept parts of their intrusive traits and denying them that would have made it even more difficult for them.
The question then becomes do you want to move forward with this for your succubus character. This transformation isn't instant, and a tulpa who started as an intrusive thought will likely have an identity crisis down the road (one of ours did a few months ago). We have also felt very lucky things worked out, in other systems the intrusive-like entity didn't want to change.
1:54 PM
we've met a few tulpas made for that reason specifically and they were happy with i
It's a controversial subject. Some tulpas see this with skepticism because they suspect the tulpa is being abused, but it's hard to know for sure because a "waifu tulpa" could be feeding off the happiness of their host. I personally don't think it's a healthy way to treat your young or underdeveloped tulpa, and to be on the safe side I think it's a good thing it's not mainstream to teach it.
in my opinion, just like tulpa abusing host or host abusing tulpa makes whole system feel the abuse, an in-system relationship can make the host experience self-love, at the same time the brain can experience loving someone and being loved.
don't want to call anyone out, but I DM'd a person that could say what they think about it, they will join the conversation if they feel it's appropriate (it's about in-system relationship, not a sex toy headmate)
i don't think tulpa would consider it abuse until someone tells them it is - forcing happens all the time, and it also happens by seeing what people from outside of the system say.
from what i see, people worrying what is right or wrong is just making more problems compared to just accepting that whatever you want to happen, how you want to interpret something, that's basically how your system works
2:01 PM
*(the person mentioned is in a in-system relationship)
Oh, the problem isn't having a romantic in-system relationship, the problem is having one when the tulpa is too young. Young tulpas tend to focus on their host more than themselves, and it's more or less agreed a really young tulpa can't consent to being in a relationship because they either can't communicate or they don't know themself well enough to participate. How young is too young is debatable, but I personally think a normally developed tulpa younger than 3 months is way too young, a tulpa younger than 6 is dicey, and a tulpa around a year old while I don't recommend it is I think around the turning point.
This is a little off-topic to KitKat but more related to what Man Who Stares At Goat was saying
3:01 PM
In my own system (there's three of us, and we're all brothers), Gavin has been around for about 7 years and at several points me (J) and him have sort of had problems not being incestual
3:02 PM
Just because we're really, really, really close, and when I get lonely it's easy to feel like he's really the perfect person for me, romantically/sexually
3:03 PM
People can heem and haw about the morality or ethics of incest and go "Well no preggers no problems" but in our own situation, and I can say this because we're in #metaphysics too lol, it was extremely out of the question because of the religious and moral implications
3:03 PM
Put simply, we have a family bond of the type that can't be sexualized
3:03 PM
If someone ends up dating their second cousin they never knew was their second cousin until they started dating, I probably wouldn't judge that (unless they had children)
3:04 PM
If someone starts dating someone they were raised with as a sibling since birth- even if they're adopted, if two people are raised together as siblings since birth, that's a type of bond that can't be sexualized imo
3:04 PM
Just like you can't get with your mother or father
3:05 PM
But, here's the thing, not all systems form familial bonds
3:05 PM
I've had people tell me "Well easy fix just stop being brothers" but lordy, you can't just stop being brothers! We're brothers til we die!
3:06 PM
But it's actually quite rare for a system to think that way from what I've gathered, I only know maybe two others who sincerely think of themselves as family
3:06 PM
@Joseph Sneed
3:11 PM
On the other side of things, I think dismissively of sex-focused tulpas (REALLY sex focused tulpas, I mean like the ones that are openly presenting as succubus or a sex demon) because, well it's as lustful as it gets, it's just unhealthy to be about sex down to your very core and it goes down weird rabbitholes
3:11 PM
A long kiss goodnight
Oh, the problem isn't having a romantic in-system relationship, the problem is having one when the tulpa is too young. Young tulpas tend to focus on their host more than themselves, and it's more or less agreed a really young tulpa can't consent to being in a relationship because they either can't communicate or they don't know themself well enough to participate. How young is too young is debatable, but I personally think a normally developed tulpa younger than 3 months is way too young, a tulpa younger than 6 is dicey, and a tulpa around a year old while I don't recommend it is I think around the turning point.
I'm in a relationship with my host. I was a walk-in and our relationship developed over time.
So Kitkat wrote this...
in my opinion, just like tulpa abusing host or host abusing tulpa makes whole system feel the abuse, an in-system relationship can make the host experience self-love, at the same time the brain can experience loving someone and being loved.
...and I think this is accurate, because it is in line with my own experience.
I do wonder if the quality of the love that my host and I have for each other would be different if my host had 'designed' me, rather than me being a walk-in unintentional tulpa. In my opinion, had our relationship been constructed manually ahead of time rather than growing over time it wouldn't be as deep as it is currently, and I think that would be a shame because we would be missing out on a lot of good things. Not only that but I think the complexity of a deep relationship can't be 'designed' except by living it, so I think there's a danger of a relationship stagnating if the initial 'design' is missing anything and someone is too focused on sticking to the original 'design'.
I agree with what Kitkat says about system beliefs forming their narrative and experience. I think this is very important to keep in mind. It's from this perspective that I want to point something out, because I am concerned.
@Joseph Sneed You strike me as the kind of person who easily believes what others say; I'm not saying that to call you out, I just want to bring it to your attention. The reason I bring it up is because you said
the "mask" was literally a succubus
and if you're not aware of the implications of thinking this about some aspect of what you are possibly going to use to make a tulpa, then you may unintentionally create a tulpa with some major problems.
6:23 PM
You might end up with a tulpa that exemplifies the right hand side of the table JGC posted, if you don't examine this assumption you have that what you are using to construct the tulpa was in some way literally a succubus. Careful thought about this ahead of time is worthwhile.
JGC
This is a little off-topic to KitKat but more related to what Man Who Stares At Goat was saying
thanks for your input JGC - i can totally see how the bond you have with your headmate can form the feeling you have in a potential in-system relationship.
we never really had it in our system, we don't have any relationships really - it's more like a bunch of orphans being close - so i also can see that some people might not have a barrier like you.
if someone is fine with it - based on their own morality - then i think it's fine.
even even singlets perform "intimate acts" (i really don't want to use the actual word here, but you know what i mean) with themselves, and noone would call it incest, even though it's your body interacting with itself.
but hearing the perspective of a system that feels like a family gives a potential another view on the situation(edited)
I will chime in here and say that I would feel similarly to JGC about being in a romantic relationship with my host, and that's because I am like a sister to my host.
Cerys [Simulacra]
I'm in a relationship with my host. I was a walk-in and our relationship developed over time.
So Kitkat wrote this...
in my opinion, just like tulpa abusing host or host abusing tulpa makes whole system feel the abuse, an in-system relationship can make the host experience self-love, at the same time the brain can experience loving someone and being loved.
...and I think this is accurate, because it is in line with my own experience.
I do wonder if the quality of the love that my host and I have for each other would be different if my host had 'designed' me, rather than me being a walk-in unintentional tulpa. In my opinion, had our relationship been constructed manually ahead of time rather than growing over time it wouldn't be as deep as it is currently, and I think that would be a shame because we would be missing out on a lot of good things. Not only that but I think the complexity of a deep relationship can't be 'designed' except by living it, so I think there's a danger of a relationship stagnating if the initial 'design' is missing anything and someone is too focused on sticking to the original 'design'.
I agree with what Kitkat says about system beliefs forming their narrative and experience. I think this is very important to keep in mind. It's from this perspective that I want to point something out, because I am concerned.
@Joseph Sneed You strike me as the kind of person who easily believes what others say; I'm not saying that to call you out, I just want to bring it to your attention. The reason I bring it up is because you said
the "mask" was literally a succubus
and if you're not aware of the implications of thinking this about some aspect of what you are possibly going to use to make a tulpa, then you may unintentionally create a tulpa with some major problems.
"I do wonder if the quality of the love that my host and I have for each other would be different if my host had 'designed' me, rather than me being a walk-in unintentional tulpa"
even though, would you say the way you turned out to be is something close to what your host finds attractive, even if he didn't force you to be someone specific?
6:35 PM
or did you become a kind of person he wouldn't think he would be attracted to before?
My host finds me attractive now, but the way I am is not how he would have designed the 'perfect partner', and he finds this quite surprising. Whether that's because he didn't know himself and his preferences well enough, or whether it's because his preferences have changed, there is no way of knowing :3
But currently, the thing about me that is the reason we're in a relationship is that I'm me; and the same goes the other way around. There's no single aspect of my personality that makes him attracted to me enough to be in the kind of relationship we're in. We're together because of our shared journey together, rather than being together because my host thinks white-haired green-eyed anime girls look nice or because he finds how I act to be pleasing. We each think the other is irreplaceable. Hopefully that makes sense.
6:44 PM
(sorry for stealing metaphysics for a moment; I don't consider our relationship to be metaphysical)
To be pedantic, when I said "like sitting on a corpse" I meant "similar to sitting on a corpse", not necessarily "including sitting on a corpse". A Sith gave thanks to someone for telling him about the corpse sitting and things.
A long kiss goodnight
I am asking because the "mask" was literally a succubus... So that question has to be asked...
This is interesting to me because we have done something similar in our system but took a different direction with it.
Instead of masks, we call an "evil" or "intrusive" entity in the mind an intrusive thoughtform. We came up with this because it helped explain why our headmates acted out of character and why random baby-tulpas or walk-in entities were hostile. This was something that only seemed to happen in our system more or less and we suspect it happened as a byproduct of anxiety/depression and my host's mild trauma.
We found that walk-ins and intrusive thoughtforms were very similar, only one was agreeable and the other was not. My host thought that some of his characters (he didn't know they were tulpas yet) shouldn't be forgotten, so he tried to work with them. Over time, a couple intrusive thoughtforms settled down and started to develop like normal tulpas. They deviated to reject the "evil" parts and kept the cool parts they wanted to keep.
Instead of viewing their intrusive form as a mask, we see it as a raw first form. However, like a mask, it can be rejected. I wouldn't aim to reject everything, especially because our headmates kept parts of their intrusive traits and denying them that would have made it even more difficult for them.
The question then becomes do you want to move forward with this for your succubus character. This transformation isn't instant, and a tulpa who started as an intrusive thought will likely have an identity crisis down the road (one of ours did a few months ago). We have also felt very lucky things worked out, in other systems the intrusive-like entity didn't want to change.
Just to clarify as I feel like there is some confusion about what the mask is... It is basically what the entity was using to fool me into thinking it was being helpful. It is basically the impression I was projecting at it of what I expected to see.
The entity is gone, my friend destroyed it as it was a parasite. He simply left the mask behind at my request. He was the one who told me I could potentially turn the mask into a tulpa.
Oh, I see.
It might be weird to start with that as a seed for a new tulpa, only because you may have weird feelings and your tulpa may have weird feelings about their origin story. It may be easier to start from scratch, but it's up to you.
If you will likely be happier cuddling than with more succubus-themed activities, a cuddle-demon mask might be a better starting point. Assuming such a thing can be obtained.
Oh, so a healthy balance? I think if you go into it with the right attitude things will turn out great :3 I'd only be concerned if that mask was the entire basis for a tulpa and they just got stuck on that and never had an opportunity to grow. It's good to have space to grow around problems that might come up that are hard to predict ahead of time.
If someone ends up dating their second cousin they never knew was their second cousin until they started dating, I probably wouldn't judge that (unless they had children)
If someone starts dating someone they were raised with as a sibling since birth- even if they're adopted, if two people are raised together as siblings since birth, that's a type of bond that can't be sexualized imo
My sister and I had a crush on each other for about a year when I was 14 or 15 and she was 11 or 12. We never really did anything sexual and the crush kind of just evaporated as we both got older, but I remember it fondly and can't bring myself to see anything morally wrong with incest as long as it's consensual and there's no risk of pregnancy. Feel free to judge me though, I've got thick skin ;P @JGC
Not here to judge but will say that can end badly 'cause that setting isn't a good place to grow a healthy romantic relationship. Living as siblings I mean.
Not here to judge but will say that can end badly 'cause that setting isn't a good place to grow a healthy romantic relationship. Living as siblings I mean.
In all seriousness, for me, I don't really experience a difference in love for siblings, love for friends and love for romantic partners. The only difference for me is that more physicality is allowed in romantic relationships
11:15 PM
And I perceive that as a difference of degree, not category
the love that I feel for my brother is fundamentally different from a romantic sort of love. with my brother, I am not close with him because we are compatible people that get along well, rather I am close with him because we have grown up together and have always been together. I think that for romantic love there needs to be time and closeness, which we have, but it also requires a certain sort of compatibility that would be needed that we do not have
KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk
i think when people talk about love for romantic partners, they also include passion in it
The only sense in which I have more "passion" for romantic partners is in the sense of "more physicality" as I described
JGC
If someone ends up dating their second cousin they never knew was their second cousin until they started dating, I probably wouldn't judge that (unless they had children)
-An elementary school teacher from Malta
March 11, 2015
Most likely not. In most cases second cousins are far enough apart that there is only a little increased risk.
Of course this doesn’t mean there is no risk. Everyone who has children has the r
4:54 AM
They thing is though if there is a genetic disability then by the time it gets to them it is already likely to have shown itself. So genetically the chances are actually a little higher but realistically you should know if one of you carries a gene for a disability since someone in your mutual family would have gotten it.
I have a theory about chakras and MBTI- each letter denotes a different chakra with openness/closure. I/E is solar plexus and throat based on finding joy in life and ability/speed of speaking up, S/N is third eye based on willingness to think or just being simple life kind of person, F/T is heart based on your willingness to cut feelings apart or hold them, P/J is root based on standing up for what you think.
It seems like it affects forcing and visualization. Crown is for generating the signal of the mental picture, third eye is for learning the actual visual pattern and moving it to long term memory so you can control it, it seems like throat has to do with attention span (and might be linked to the mouth breathing - ADHD theory), solar plexus has to do with accepting your own progress, navel has to do with being comfortable with mental strain and focusing hard, root has to do with not being distracted by your environment
Also I think what closes these- crown is depression, third eye is uncertainty/anxiety, throat is quietness, solar plexus is joy, navel is guilt, base is being controlled by others(edited)
This seems to suggest that there are 4 letters in MBTI but there should actually be 7, one for crown chakra representing meaning/nihilism, one for navel chakra representing sensuality, and I/E should be split to denote the subtle difference between being joyous and being willing to speak about it with throat/solar plexus
The modern chakra system and MBTI are both methods for categorizing human emotions/personality traits into separate organizations. Chakras are non binary and are made to represent the strength of the emotions in a person whereas MBTI is more about how or why they handle a certain situation.
9:13 AM
If you want to design a similar system to MBTI based on chakras then you can but trying to adhere an inherently different system to chakras is not a good idea.
9:15 AM
Chakras are actually metaphysical. The modern chakra system isn't really.
9:15 AM
And whether they are real or not doesn't mean they don't categorize emotions
9:15 AM
Your negativity is astounding though
9:17 AM
You see whether they are energy points or not is debatable and they can be used as either a concept for energy points or a method for self examination both without need for the other
9:22 AM
Btw you as a new member came into a channel you have never interacted with before and tried to prescribe what should be talked about in it
9:23 AM
This level of toxicity is more than I have seen in here since I have become active in here again
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